This is part of a conversation involving left-hand path practitioners. I seem to have lost the beginning section.
"Hmm...I think their arrogance stems from the whole "supra-individual" thing. You're bound to have people like that."
Yep - but then I view that as just a stage in personal development. Most people go through something very similar during adolescence where they're attempting to become their own unique individual identity. Some people never grow out of it though, and those are the ones I've unfortunately had the most contact with in the left-hand scene.
There is one person in particular that I'm in contact with in my area who is quite serious, but in my opinion, although intelligent and well-read, he's one of the more unbalanced and awkward people I know. A clairvoyant observation of his aura shows energy structures way out of whack, and sometimes he's like a broken robot repeating bits of programming stuck on a loop. Interestingly, he's in his late 30's - early 40's and resembles a dorky and slightly darker version of Stephen King - he wears all black, but still looks and acts a bit like a dork hehehe.
"Hey, they're "evil," right? Of course they're supposed to think highly of themselves! lol So have you met any stable ones?"
Not yet. I'm still keeping my eyes open for some
"I'm sure there's got to be some...The idea of superiority appeals to social losers, I'm sure. That could be the 'no self-confidence' ones...Reminds me of all the Wiccans I've met: silly little teenage girls, though I'm certain many Wiccans have to be real and serious practitioners."
The majority of impressive Wiccans you'll likely find are the initiated ones over the age of 30 who are well-read in their history and who have done plenty of cross-training in other styles of magick.
"Does the same go for Lefties?"
Again, due to my own experiences with them, most seem to be stuck at a certain stage of personality development. There has been one person I was in contact with who was primarily into Enochian practice, but leaning toward left-hand path concepts. In his case though (and he was also a bit screwy, though only for a while because he was a new initiate and all newbies go through a stage where they think everything is out to get 'em etc.) his purpose for studying the dark side of things had more to do with his interest in working on his Shadow (see the works of Carl Jung - has to do with unredeemed repressed subconscious issues). If that's the purpose for involvement in such things, then the practitioner tends to be more serious and will eventually achieve a balanced outlook on reality and greater self-knowledge.
"I wouldn't want my would-be ilk to be so shallow and petty. I'm just too individualistic to ever be a "Right-Hand Path" guy...Though I dig Buddism, the idea of merging into "God" forever and becoming one with "God" doesn't comfort me at all. Frankly, I find it a little disturbing; I like being ME and nothing else. :P "
hehehe that's your EGO talking :)
The human ego doesn't like anything that would insinuate the necessity of its destruction, even though the ego itself really is just a big pile of nothing i.e. merely a description of what/who you think you are (which is usually far removed from what You really are e.g. HGA/divine core etc. - direct experience of higher spiritual realities will quickly confirm this for anyone with the ambition and guts to seek out such hard-won experiences).
You might like to read some books by Carlos Castaneda - plenty of stuff in there to make you question the nature of the ego and your view of the world.
"Here's how I see it:
LHP:Doing things for yourself.
RHP:Doing things for others/something else."
Yes and no - that's a rather simplified version. I'm more of a MHP/Middle Pillar or All paths guy myself. I see value in the exploration (in moderation) and harmony of both. I'm interested in spiritual development, but I view practical applications in the physical realm as useful opportunities for practice and development of skill along the way.
How about this view (it's a bit rambly, but it's late at night):
Do some things for yourself from time to time, eventually learn to see beyond yourself through (re)union with your inner divine core (this doesn't involve fluffy happy crap - as a path of development it's actually quite terrifying and confronting and not for the weak), eventually align yourself with the greater universe and its flows (sorta like the way of the Tao, or in renaissance magick terms uniting the Macrocosm with the microcosm), and through this become More than you are. Some ancient magickians used to try to unite with Gods so as to experience life and function as something more than human. With that type of path it's a trade off - you do a few things for the higher being and in return get access to info and ability you wouldn't normally have (obviously as a result your lower ego/persona would change regardless - you'd probably find yourself viewing things differently and no longer pandering to lower ego urges involuntarily). With modern ceremonial, a similar process can be seen through union with one's higher-self/inner core, but it doesn't stop there - union with Allness comes next and doesn't necessarily imply a dissolving of one's self completely. The Ego will dissolve, but that doesn't mean the death of the real You. You just remember and function from the True you, rather than the fake mask/persona you've created through earthly incarnation. I view the process and end result of all that as sorta like the creation of a circuit that links up the body, mind, and spirit with the Divine Source (an unmanifest unity beyond all human concepts of good or evil). What brief exposure I've had to those higher states is enough to reaffirm to me that the benefits possible far outweigh any lesser dabblings with short-term short-sighted ego-based goals.
These things I speak of are all experiential paths - they're not things you read about only, and they all involve playing out vast complex lessons in the physical realm as well as on higher planes.
"So what exactly does a disembodied human do whilst not living? Float around scaring the hell out of people for fun?"
I usually take a long vacation! Hard to describe, but what I remembered in brief flashes during childhood was being in some cloudy white space with silvery white beings. Communication was not through words, but thoughts.
For some, after death times are spent on lower planes (due to a lesser degree of spiritual evolution) and simply resemble extended astral projections. On several occasions I got the chance to speak to a friend of mine who'd killed himself, and he basically described an unpredictable realm that, to him, was like a continuous astral projection (I don't believe he was sufficiently evolved to go to higher realms and avoid attracting trouble - he'd retained a lot of anger and negativity from several lifetimes, and those stored packets of emotional energy would tend to hold a person's consciousness at lower vibratory rates/frequency levels of reality).
"lol Is it possible to turn into something other than human? i.e., "Screw this! I'm gonna be an astral dragon!" or what have you? :) "
Not exactly. You can modify your astral body and assume any shape you wish, but you are still what you are in essence, and anyone viewing you from a higher frequency band of reality will easily see through any such illusion. You'll still feel/smell like a human soul.
"Theoretically become/get corrupted by a demonic entity?"
That's possible during life or after, but not a desirable state. Demonic beings have no mercy and don't care much about human life and consciousness.
"Personally I'd like to just lurk around for awhile...You know...hang out with the living... :P That's "
Lots of people do that anyway after death, but this is due to an excessive focus and connection with the physical realm.
"one reason why I'd get into magick: increase my power and awareness in the great beyond..."
That's not a bad thing really, but you'd get the most benefit by doing work to increase your range of perception i.e. into higher frequencies, rather than dwelling too much on the physical to the point that you only work to benefit your ego. The ego is a useful tool, but is best used when subjected to the Will of the Spirit.
"Oh, and a question on your views on the nature of god(ess)s, what do you think Allah/Yahweh is/are?"
Allah and YHVH aren't the same thing exactly.
"I think they came from "type-2," and *maybe* became "type-3" after sufficient believers put enough um...energy into them. Just want to know what the hell people are killing each other over, is all. :)"
There's a lot of evidence to suggest that YHVH began as a local tribal deity, but who knows for sure, really (I'm not a scholar - always been more interested in practical applications rather than pedantic facts and figures). I tend to view it from the kabbalistic and symbolic perspective half the time, though quite often I find that any work with the Tetragrammaton will end up tapping into a large egregore formed from the collective worship and devotion of millions of people. There are also links to higher things/states beyond this through YHVH of course.
As far as Allah goes, I just view it as a big egregore formed by millions and millions of ... highly devoted people. I'm a little biased though and I'll admit it. Interestingly, I once had a strange encounter with that egregore shortly after moving to the country I'm now in. I woke up after a vivid dream wherein this collective consciousness contacted me. There was lots of symbolic imagery of devotional dancing in a labyrinth-like middle-eastern building (with almost no furniture), and at one point I was being instructed to hold my arms and body in a particular position during meditation so as to increase the flow of Allah consciousness and help in my 'conversion' to Islam, and somewhere a voice said "Make room for Allah" - it was quite creepy. Of course I documented the whole experience, but if it's all to same to you, I'd rather NOT delve much into the whole Allah thing. Heh if I had to convert to anything I'd have to convert to full-on Judaism just because of the fascinating history of mystical/magickal practice (morphic resonance might have something to do with my feelings there too).
"I appreciate your taking time out to reply to my questions..."
No problem. I don't claim to know everything (or even anything for that matter) but I do the best I can to speak from my own experience. If my late night mental meanderings help you out in some way, that's great.
I probably tell this to everyone, but if you'd like a text to help develop all the primary skills you need for any form of magick practice, you wouldn't go wrong by picking up a copy of Franz Bardon's "Initiation into Hermetics" - there's a version available for free in the realmagick e-group's files section. You'll also do well to peruse the concepts set forth in the main body of the Kybalion. That's also available for free in the Files section, in the Hermetics folder.
(Don't forget that the Universe exhibits Balance in all things manifest. Excess of light can blind, just as much as excess of darkness.)
Later correspondance with the same person:
"There's a reason why it's called a healthy Ego, you know. ;) Really, though...I'm under the impression that if someone royally fucks with you, you should do the same to them, if not worse. That's MY verion of balancing Karma! >:) It's a dog-eat-dog universe out there; perhaps some people see this as a reason to boost their abilities in this life."
I used to feel exactly the same way, but through experience, I've found that it's best just to rebalance a wrong, rather than going overboard and creating an imbalance in the opposite direction. (I totally fucked myself over doing that for a few years - before I learned from that experience I didn't think there was any such thing as 'karma'.)
"Well, I guess this is where our beliefs split. I think that the Ego is a great thing to have, as long as you balance it with reality. Without a healthy ego, you'd have low self-esteem. With a big one, you're an obnoxious prick. But you NEED one to successfully survive in real life."
I'm not actually disagreeing with you in essence, but our terminologies are where there is some confusion. More on this in a sec. What you call a healthy ego I call a healthy sense of Self (with the understanding that while the Self may perceive and appear to function as though it is separate from the cosmos, there is a paradox present and All things are actually interconnected - see the Kybalion for additional ideas there).
"Are you sure it's just my Ego? Even when I was too little to have an ego, I was fiercly independant and individualistic...Perhaps I'm simply a spiritual outcast? OK ok...We're all connected in a way, I mean maybe it's because I value unity in division, like the US's latin motto. (E plurbus Unium, or something to that effect.)"
Temperaments seem to be a combination of genetics, past life experiences, energetic make-up, and to some extent perhaps even astrological influences (I'm finding that there is something to that as well - through observation, that is).
"By the way: They claim to be able to give people the sensation of Nirvana or togetherness by stimulating the frontal lobes of the brain. I was wondering. Could this lead to a bunch of future mages who use technology to help them cast/whatnot? It seems dangerous since it could wear out your brain's ability to adjust you to altered states of consciousness."
There have already been plenty of experiments with psychism and technology. I'm not up on that sort of thing, but I've read accounts of various governments involved in such things, and I've also spoken to a few people interested in combining technology and magick in a field they call psychotronics. Mostly that just consists of charging an almost worthless piece of technology (either part of old radio equipment or an amplifier) magickally so that it will supposedly enhance your magickal workings (usually they tape a wire to themselves and plug it into the mic jack, and then crank the volume up while performing ritual and believing that the static noise carries your intent with it, so that broadcasting such white noise will carry your will further, or something like that). I've never bothered to experiment with it though.
"Forgive me for saying this, but I think you
lean just a tiny bit towards the Right Hand Path. I myself value yin-yang-esque
balance above all else...So I think that you can still be yourself, while being
Hehehe we don't disagree at all actually, but my terminology might need clarification. There's the ego, and then there's the Ego. For most people, they view the ego (the human personality or fake mask that they've built up over the past several years) as their real selves, and function as though there is nothing else to their mental/spiritual make-up. For magickians who spend the time to explore and examine their psychological and spiritual components more closely, the ego is just a big pile of nothing compared to the REAL Self (the Ego) that lies hidden beneath the outer garbage. When a person aligns with this inner core, and functions from his/her true self, their actions are more potent and their viewpoints far more expansive in comparison to the average ego. In effect, they've become more than they were, and are probably closer to a type of 'godhood'. (I'm only using that term loosely.)
"What I don't like is the idea of merging forever into the All..."
That is actually an ego viewpoint, not an Ego one. Merging into Allness doesn't necessarily mean not being anything or not existing in some form. Here's a bit of wisdom imparted to me from an advanced adept:
1 + 0 = Infinity
Oneness (within yourself first e.g. connecting up all your psychological/spiritual components) + Allness (e.g. uniting with the All) = a state of being that is pointless to describe as it is beyond all comprehension (my guess is that in essence you'd BE God/Brahma/the All - possibly even while incarnate, which would imply godlike skill/power/knowledge etc.)
"It's fun being by myself...If it's not eternal, fine...But some things just don't make sense to me. If, like in Zen Buddism, we merged forever into the All after a series of successful lives, what would be the point of going through it all in the first place?"
That's what I used to wonder. I do see their point about life being full of constant suffering now that I'm older though, and I can see that after a while you'd get tired of doing the same crap all the time, such as being born, going through childhood, going through school all over again (and getting in fights), adjusting to adulthood, getting ill, and going to work and paying taxes until you die. When looked at from that viewpoint, constantly having to incarnate doesn't seem like much fun. There are occasional parties and sex and other stuff, but the rest of the time it's full of stuff we don't want to do.
"If we were meant to become One, why weren't we One always before? Gahh....my brain. So I would agree with you that it's a neverending process. Also, concerning rebirth: What about life on other planets? (NO, I'm NOT a Raelian! *shivers*)"
I've seen evidence during astral work that life exists on other planets and that it's possible to incarnate there as well, though there may be some sort of barrier the ties a soul to this planet for a time (or it could be just the person's attachments to this planetary sphere that prohibit it from leaving).
"Good. I'm sick of New Age crap. lol hmmm...Could it be possible to be united with your higher self even without the use of high magick? "
It's possible to accomplish a conscious union (most people are already One, but magickal training helps them remember that - one of my mentors described the change as a rewiring process) without doing magick at all. I've seen people do it accidentally by meditation during an acid trip, or by taking certain homeopathic remedies that just happened to affect their energy structure in a way that caused them to have a spiritual experience. There are many ways to get to the same point.
"I tend to always do/say what I feel is right, just by trusting myself...Though I feel that I'm much too nice to others who do me wrong."
I'd call that a gut-feeling thing. But if you ever notice a sudden 'knowing' (without words and seemingly from nowhere) coming from above your head and just flowing into you, then that could be indicative of a communication with higher-self. I've had (and seen) that happen during times when I was about to do something that I thought was 'right', but then suddenly had an illuminating flow that explicitly made me 'know' it wasn't the right thing for me to be involved in (and explained why without using words - just a sudden knowing). Every time that's happened, I felt compelled to go along with it, because the sensation of absolute knowing was too certain to even consider disagreeing.
"I guess I would consider myself Left-Hand moreso than Middle Pillar (but not totally LHP) because I believe that living in the mortal plane is more important than in the astral planes; from what you say living here is pretty important, so why not? :P"
I'm probably more an All paths type - I try not to categorize myself much, but I learn best by travelling down most every road and gaining the personal experience of having done it. I say Middle Pillar in the sense of balance between left and right or Severity and Mercy.
"So your HGA is sort of like an ego-without-the-ego, then?"
It's the Real you (the inner divine core that remembers all past lives and knows who/what you are) that you (the ego/human personality) have forgotten about. If you align the lower ego with the true Self (a process sometimes like getting initially incompatible gears to eventually mesh and fuse) then after a while the union will be more complete and you'll be functioning from a state of greater knowing and ability. You (your lower self) would effectively BE the real YOU (the higher-self) while incarnate.
In my own experience of this, I've found that the union can be broken temporarily during times when/if the lower ego decides to do whatever the fuck it wants while ignoring higher guidance. Usually, the Higher-Self component will eventually lead the lower self through a series of learning experiences to prove that it (the upper) was correct all along and that the lower was just wasting time by rebelling in a childish fashion. (Been there, done that too.) Though sometimes, that rebelling is useful in that it helps work out certain issues (for the purpose of transmuting unwanted energies) which still helps you on your path in the long run.
"Makes sense. I own "The Enochian Magick of John Dee" and it says how Da Vinci theorized that spirtual beings wouldn't be able to use spoken language because they don't have vocal cords to vibrate sound with...Ohhh, I'm sick of hearing about "white bright beings!" :) "
heh you might not be if you'd spent a long time dealing with the alternative. Being astrally raped in the ass by demonic sludge or being tortured every time you close your eyes while voices taunt you and poke astral fingers in your face saying "death awaits you!" isn't a fun state to be in. BUT, that's the sorta stuff that can happen when you mess around with the dark stuff in the wrong way.
Some demonic beings appear to act as guardians of the threshold for either higher or lower planes in the sense that they'll harm you if you retain similar (to them) energies within you. There's a similar reference to this with the 42 judges in the Egyptian book of the dead (if they detected energies within you that were similar to what they represented, they'd kick your ass etc.).
"Got anything better? lol How about some Necromancy? I like Necromancy. John Edwards is a joke. >:("
Sure I got better - I've spent my fair share of time dealing with demonic entities and fighting nasty crap when I worked with 2 adepts who made it their business to be involved in that stuff. That's why I'm not one of those modern ceremonialists who thinks that magick is all in your head and that psychism has no place in magick.
After waking up several times into vivid dreams/projections that I couldn't wake up out of and being nearly killed on several occasions, I have to say that bright white beings are a TREAT. However, both light and dark offer useful lessons. What I've learned from the dark side is that I can avoid having unnecessary trouble by releasing/shedding the corresponding 'dark' (or I should say lower vibrational) energies from within myself. Like attracts like in that manner. When you are able to exist on higher frequencies beyond the lower astral, then you don't get bothered very often by anything large and nasty wanting to eat you for lunch.
"Hmm...So if I were to become Super Ultra Mage I could do whatever the hell I wanted to out there?"
Yes and no - remember, no matter how 'big' you get, there's ALWAYS something bigger hehehe. It's kind of like the ocean. You might think you're a big fish, until a much bigger fish that was hidden under a rock or in the dark depths decides to come forward and put you back into line (or in our case, decides to inform you the way things REALLY work in the universe).
"What really is the point of 'evolving' to go to higher planes? Just so you could feel blissful for a little while until you're kicked back down here kicking and screaming?"
Nope :) That's just like the Christian concept of Heaven - who the hell would want to go strum harps for an eternity???
"That's what I never really understood about
Eastern thought. You work your ass off for thousands of years to unite in blissful
harmony...Seems a waste of time to me. Just make your pleasure from life itself,
which is a great thing indeed."
Pleasure in life is fine, but constantly repeating the same crap over and over again is boring. It's much easier to not have to incarnate in order to evolve spiritually.
Here's a circuit diagram (note that I'm using elemental names as indicative of levels of manifestation, rather than actual 'elemental energies'):
Spirit - Allness (the unmanifest source of all things - Spirit can also be thought of as 'that which permeates all things')
Fire - Higher-Self (wordless intuition, the true Self, the real You)
Air - mental body/ego (also can be thought of as the mediating consciousness that can pick and choose what to focus on from within one's various psychic components)
Water - astral body/emotions
Earth - ethereal and physical bodies (the vessel for all of the above that
is being used temporarily for purposes of learning on this planet)
All these 'parts' are meant to be connected up in a conscious manner in order for the mage to function at his/her maximum potential. Most people aren't hooked up like that consciously. They're usually only using portions of the above to greater or lesser degrees and never really hooking them all up (e.g. becoming aware of those components and learning what they do and how to use them) as one complete circuit.
When you die, the Earth portion is vacated. (Sometimes the ethereal body stays around for a while and is seen as a 'ghost' though usually this husk just dissipates within a short while.) As far as I know, most people have the Fire/Air/Water stuff connected up after death (even though the Fire/HGA section isn't connected up consciously during life half the time - I was actually told once that the Higher Self is a portion that hangs out on the 'other side' while you're incarnate), which is why people remember their past lives and who/what they are after death. If you retain lower vibratory energies (sometimes mistakenly called 'sins' by religious fanatics obsessed with enforcing ridiculous moralities upon the rest of the world) within your lower astral body, then you'll probably have a hard time going to higher planes.
Related topic: The previous paragraph should explain why there are so many traditions of monks that abstain from all the supposedly 'fun' stuff in life - they're not doing it for moral reasons, they're doing it to purge their lower non-physical 'bodies' of certain energies so they can achieve particular states of consciousness (usually for sake of direct experience with the divine, or for sake of personal exploration). Too often a moral connotation is made there, and common people lose all sight of the deeper practical significance in such practices. If you take a look at certain medieval grimoires and ancient magickal manuscripts you'll also see similar ideas wherein the text instructs the magickian to abstain from sex or eating meat for a period of several days prior to performing the ritual. Activation of lower chakras (chakras function almost like 'gills' - they take in and digest energies at particular frequencies, and each one works with a different frequency range) for sex will tend to draw one's focus down to physical things, and eating meat will tend to use up a fair bit of energy since it takes longer to digest, and the vibratory rate of meat besides will draw an initiate's focus down to the physical realm. Therefore, if someone wants to explore higher realms, such temporary abstinence can be used as a practical way to ensure a lesser connection to physicality and result in a successful (High) Magick working.
"I thought you said it was neverending?"
The process of evolution is, but the process of incarnating isn't. Eventually you reach a point where you're no longer bound to that necessity and can continue to learn/grow without incarnation. From what I've been told, there's no upper limit to how much you can evolve, but I'm finding that human conceptions of existence and consciousness are quite limited compared to what's possible.
Here's an example of what I'm talking about:
The most highly evolved being to which I have come in contact with did not have a form in the way that I usually think of when dealing with entities. At first all I could see were a few splashes of dim colour against the starry background of Space. Then I had the feeling of having fallen into an infinite void, which was VERY disturbing to me. (The forces within that void were self/ego-negating - it felt like I was unbecoming myself while being in there). Once I calmed down slightly, I realized that this vast void itself WAS the consciousness of a Being greater than anything I'd encountered. I'd never suspected up til that point that consciousness could exist in such a manner, since all I'd been familiar with were human level beings and simpler.
"So there's an end to reincarnation now? Or just cycles, as you say? What IS the point of reincarnation?"
My conclusions (while incomplete) indicate that it's for a possible combination of reasons.
1. To develop the lower 'bodies' i.e. astral, mental, etc.
2. To learn lessons and get experiences that we wouldn't have access to in non-physical planes.
3. To develop greater awareness of self, Self, and the universe we live in.
4. To assist the consciousness of the planet we live on (seems to be some greater project involving the Earth's consciousness itself - this planet is the body/vessel of a living being who has gone into a sleep state to assist some other process/project - details as yet unclear, but as we evolve and become more aware, it somehow benefits the Earth, possibly due to increased energy being let into this sphere)
"I like to think it's meaningless, like life. You MAKE meaning out of it, which in itself, is better than having to exist in someone else's ideal world full of "meaning." :)"
If a person's focus is purely on perception of things in the physical realm alone and has never been expanded through spiritual experiences on other planes, then that person might tend to believe that there is no meaning other than what you make. I'm an advocate of direct experience of the unseen always. Experience teaches :)
"I'm sure LaVey and his minions would disagree. :) Anyway, I see the"
According to inside information, LaVey owned a lot of books on the occult, but hadn't read or practiced half of them hehehehe. Anyway, my previous statement was in reference to the ego, not the Ego (figuratively speaking).
"Ego as something to be cherised until death, THEN you can worry about where you're going. It's all survival."
That's a more primitive state of being from my viewpoint. Focusing only on survival and day-to-day stuff is fine if that's what makes you happy, but nowadays we have the potential to go much further since we don't have to only focus on basic survival needs - we have more time to explore the hidden realms.
"Wow. I thought the same way. But could say, Allah become or already is, a fully conscious entity with a Will of his own?"
In some ways yes - thought-forms and egregores tend to function that way after they've existed for a while.
"I don't agree with you on certain topics,
such as the Ego being worthless, but your site has taught me well. lol Should
I regard the"
We possibly agree more than you think.
"different philosophies on magick to be like
martial arts, in that there is no one correct way/understanding but all have
certain roots that make it possible?"
I view all magick styles as related in the sense that they all share common roots, much like the various styles of martial arts do. Some are more limited than others, depending on what it is you want to accomplish.
"Your experiences are very useful to people,
and you at least have the good grace to NOT tell others what you think is the
absolute truth. When you get as esoteric as that, reality is indeed infinite.
;) Well then I'll just go on my own path and see whose ideals are better suited
for me...But then, like Martial Arts, what works for one person would castastrophically
fail for the next. lol"
Try everything that interests you, and try to get a firm foundation of study built somewhere along the way (either through a system/order like the Golden Dawn, or through Bardon's work etc.). If you check out everything you're interested in, then you'll learn through personal experience like I did. And if you get a firm grasp of the essential skills through a basic system then you'll have a foundation to build upon for later study and exploration.
>>(Don't forget that the Universe exhibits Balance in all things
>>manifest. Excess of light can blind, just as much as excess of
"Totally agree, as well. Come to think of it, I DO feel rather happy whenever I read about Yin and Yang, and think about universal balance. Could that be a type of the connectedness I have with the All?"
Could be - everyone has a different starting point I suppose. Every year you study esoteric subjects you'll learn a bit more and have more insight into things you already thought you knew. Give it a few years of work and see how you feel :) When I first started out, I thought I was going to be a Satanist/left-hand path type. Then I got into ceremonial magick and thought I wanted to be a Thelemite. Now I'm mostly interested in historical pagan paths, ancient Kabbalah schools/methods, Hermetic texts, and the works of Franz Bardon. It's surprising how much a person can change over time. That's not to say those earlier experiences were without value - they actually taught me quite a bit, but after a while they ceased to offer anything of educational value to me so I moved on to other things.
"I see that kind of Karma as affecting those who would feel guilt afterwards."
I used to think that same way, and I'd feel no guilt afterwards, but it seems my karma eventually caught up to me and ran over my dogma heheh.
"Well...Back a few years there was the kid who was a total dick to me, I hated him absolutely. One day I went online and found some "Voodoo" death hexes. One of those templates where you say something and add the person's name in the blanks. Really stupid, I know, but I think it worked...You see a good while later I forgot about it, and in January I kept thinking something big was going to happen on Febuary 11th...Forgot about that as well. Then, on that day, three of my friends got into a bad car wreck. The kid I hated was kinda my friend at that point in time...Then after a while I thought that maybe I did it...The 3-fold law and everything...But "
3-fold 'law' only applies to Wiccan initiates. Most of us only observe a directly proportional cause-and-effect relationship between actions and results.
"As for balancing a wrong, yes, I believe that should be done. You've got a point about taking it overboard, too. I mean, if you didn't do anything about pricks in this world, you'd get smacked around. Still, though, I feel as though there is some merit in ridding the world of such jerks. ;)"
Ah but if you attempted to rid the world of jerks completely, you'd be upsetting the balance AND denying yourself and others wonderful learning opportunities. The best learning opportunities come about through adversity, or unpleasant events. With an extremely open mind, try to remember every bad thing that's happened in your life, and then just TRY and tell me you didn't learn something useful from them all heheh. (I had a rough childhood, and even I can see the benefits from having gone through some pretty bad experiences.) It's become an old proverb now that whatever doesn't kill you will make you stronger (and wiser for that matter), and it's true.
"Genetics. God, I just got into a big debate with this guy over the"
Speaking of genetics, I view the body's genes as helpful in creating a physical vessel with certain characteristics or predispositions, much like a Ferrari will have different predispositions to a Lexus, but it's really up to the individual driver how the car is handled. Sometimes the stock features come in handy regardless of what you're driving - all depends on how well you know your 'car'.
Also, I'm finding that there may be some influence from morphic resonance.
"This has led me to believe that I should trust my gut instincts on such matters, since they seem right. If something relly bothers me and doesn't meet my ideas of reality, I find it is later disproven asa bunk. So...I try to make my beliefs as consistent with reality as possible. And it seems to work."
Keep in mind that Reality is infinite. Just as in the symbolism of the Tarot trump "The Blasted Tower", it is always possible to have one's towers of belief blown to shit from time to time. We all observe things in our environment and make assumptions about the way things are. That's just a fact due to the nature of our perception. But, every now and then, statistically speaking, we will all have times where the way we assumed things to be proves to be incorrect, even though our gut-feelings were completely behind us. (That is one good thing about having the higher intuition to help out the gut-feelings - I've had a few times now where I'd start to follow my gut only to have higher intuition step in and walk all over the human side before I had a chance to make a terrible mistake.)
"Whatever it is, if it doesn't seem 'right' to me, in that it doesn't seem to fit into reality, gives me a bad feeling...and now I use that like intuition to steer clear of such things, and it WORKS. So "
It'll probably work most of the time, but it'll probably work best when having to do with things of the physical realm and especially the emotions due to the aspect/components being made use of. If those gut-feelings are actually coming from chakras 1-3, then they'll be making use of frequencies of reality that correspond more to denser manifestations rather than higher spiritual intuition. Next time you get a gut-feeling on something, try to see where on/in your body the feeling comes from.
By the way, I'm not saying that such feelings aren't valid. I'm only saying that if they are what I think they are, then they may have some limitations when it comes to certain things.
"Ah, so my idea of the ego was in fact, the Ego. Great. :)"
It's probably not a standard or commonly used term, using ego to represent lower self and Ego to represent higher self. I only used the capitalization for sake of clarification.
"My intuition isn't off by much. Oftentimes I can predict which movies will do well, and others will bomb horribly."
Practice and see what areas of your body those feelings come from. Also, take note of anything that flows down from your crown (top of head) chakra - especially any feelings of absolute 'knowing' (that prove correct/true) that pop in all in one sudden impulse.
"I've a book by someone kinda like that. Phillip Cooper's "Basic Magick."
I distinctly remember that book
"It is fairly useful, but he goes into astrology (which I don't like)"
I resisted astrology for years, but now I'm finding that the street-corner astrologers were the ones who gave an ancient science such a bad name. The good stuff is actually quite complex and almost nothing like the popular view of it would suggest. I'm also finding that when you follow a particular planet and take note of what it's doing and then watch events in the physical realm, it is surprising how often the two correspond. For example, every time Mercury goes retrograde, you'll almost inevitably have communication (this includes social interactions) and computer/technology problems.
"and New Agey "Age of Aquarius" crap in the end of the book. He also thinks that servitors and evil crap are just all in your head. I think you agree with me here too: that kind of attitude puts me off to occultism. More like "applied psychology," then. lol I know much of magick IS just that, but still."
Actually, most of modern versions of occultism are like that, but if you look at historical documents, you find that real magick is very much involved in external phenomena. I think people like Cooper are only helping to give a serious field of study a bad reputation by redefining what they think it is and acting as though their new definition is the way things have always been. When I read chunks of his book in the bookstore a few years ago I became profoundly irritated with his arrogance and lack of deeper insight.
"Oh, I understand that
completely. It would be fun to rock the boat a little, though. >:)"
Have you tried doing similar things like that in the past in everyday life and had your ass kicked badly for it? If you carry that attitude into your magickal work then you can expect something similar to that on an astral level. (Been there, done that, went through hell for 2 years straight.)
It's good to remember that this stuff isn't a game.
"Amen! So no matter what, eternity is fractured into smaller bits for you to handle, then? Alright. I always liked that idea."
Don't really know - I'm not there yet ;) All I've seen of the future is a never-ending path of self-development in accordance with my own inner/spiritual concepts of perfection (in accordance with my "True Will" or purpose for existence etc.). I'm working to become the best and most diverse ME that I can be :)
"Agreed. I think our ideas on the term "evolution" are off. I think you mean evoltion as "becoming better" while I see it as simply "change."
I see it as change for the better, with 'better' being a subjective judgement based on the preferences of the person experiencing the change.
"But what IS the point of all this!? Why do we incarnate for a reason? WHO is giving us this lesson we oh so need to learn??"
A few things I'll just mention, based on my own observations and experiences:
1. The Earth is a nursery for souls
2. In some ways there is a higher sense of community on a spiritual level that most humans (the Sleepers) aren't aware of. Becoming a better 'mage' will allow you to participate in this vast community in a better and more productive way. Refusing to develop is like refusing to grow up and take part in the adult world (figuratively speaking).
3. When you become more skilled, you'll inevitably find that you are more and more frequently thrown into situations (out of your control) that require you to make use of your skills. Most adepts find that you can't just develop a skill and not use it - the universe (the Tao, the All) will find a way to make you do your part. I developed some self-defence and teaching skills, and now I find myself constantly being asked (by people I don't know) to help them out with those types of situations, and every time I'm asked there's always this underlying 'feeling' which feels/smells like the All/Spirit is involved in instigating the interaction. While it'd be really nice to think I'm a completely autonomous being who can do whatever he wants, from an objective spiritual viewpoint I'm just another aspect of The All and whatever The All wants, The All gets, whether we're aware of it or not (how could it be otherwise, when we're all aspects of, or figments in the mind of The All?).
4. For many humans, there are hierarchies of beings that supervise and help them plan their incarnations (Christians would probably call them Angels and guardian angels, but I would only use those terms loosely in this instance). The plans are usually loosely structured, and each person is accorded a 'hierarchy' of supervisors that is appropriate to his/her level of development. I only found this out when I outgrew the group of beings I started out with - one of my mentors helped appoint me to a better one more appropriate to dealing with adepts (looked like solar beings, whereas the first group looked like neon blue sparks). I haven't seen any literature that discusses this type of observation in any detail in an unbiased way, but that's what I discovered (put into my own words) through my own personal experience. You can take it however you like.
"That doesn't make sense to me...Eventually everyone would get to that high point, and unbalance everything."
For every spiritually oriented person that exists, there are correspondingly non-spiritually oriented people to balance them out. I've noticed that people who work to join with Allness tend to go through a process of shedding baser aspects/energies via tempering experiences/trials, while people who are there to counterbalance them tend to become steadily more 'corrupt' until they get themselves blown to bits and dissipated (it's like they keep going lower and lower until they're so full of energetic sludge that they just turn to mush and become food for higher things). The non-spiritual or even 'evil' people (I hate to use that type of subjective judgement) are here to provide necessary tension which promotes growth and development for all things in manifestation. It's through the friction between positive and negative that things 'exist'.
(Personally, I'd prefer to stay on the path to becoming a stronger more enlightened being rather than becoming energetic sludge and getting myself obliterated and recycled. This does not imply a RH viewpoint, however - again I don't wish to strum harps for eternity, and being enlightened or at a higher stage of spiritual evolution doesn't imply that you're some pure white being who performs no function while staying in a constant state of blissful union or being dissolved into non-existence.)
"If you get too high, wouldn't you fall back down?"
Yes and no. It's possible to take on energies of a lower vibratory rate and experience a 'fall' so to speak. We do appear to have the free will to do that if we choose.
"I'm still confused:"
Because you're thinking linearly ;)
Logic and reason have limits - beyond physical reality, they're pretty useless."what's the point of accomplishing such high existence? Do you stay like that forever? Or is it possible to lose power and go back down?"
Ok, something I haven't mentioned yet is that there is a huge difference between a mage and a mystic. The mystic (typically RH path people) usually seeks union with supreme Being above all else. He will typically keep moving onto higher levels of reality/consciousness while forgetting where he came from. Often, such types start perceiving on such high levels, that they become religious zealots and fanatics who have completely lost touch with the physical world.
The difference between them and a mage, is that the mage seeks to be proficient in operation on ALL levels of reality. He does not usually forget where he came from. Myself, I keep pushing to experience things on higher frequencies of reality for the purpose of gaining a greater understanding of the mechanics of those levels and to add to my arsenal of useful skills. As I've mentioned before, I STILL practice lower forms of magick to influence physical events. I find all of it useful. However, being a somewhat hermetic mage, I'm also of the opinion that all forms of magick are easiest (and safest) when practiced under the authority of one's higher self/HGA etc. Without that connection, a practitioner just won't go as far or be able to understand the deeper hows/whys behind what he's attempting to do. This is my opinion based on years of experience and observation of myself and other practitioners. The people I've known who lacked a higher conscious connection (because they'd ignored/neglected any form of spiritual development to round out themselves as practitioners) just ended up doing everything half-assed without much result more often than not.
"To me, I don't see really the point of "evolving." I like being incarnate, or at least hanging around here. From your viewpoint, this would seem "primitive," or "de-evolving," but, if you'll allow my ego to speak here (heh): I don't mind reincarnating."
We'll see how you feel about it after you've done it a dozen more times hehehe.
"However, if I stopped, would I be able to
do so again?"
Yes - from what I know, I've had long breaks between incarnations before. (Time means nothing, so it's pointless to try to describe it in terms of years/weeks etc.)
"Perhaps, like I compared this to martial arts, that what may work and feel right for you would make me crash and burn. I also don't like to be wrong on big matters like this. :P"
All I will suggest is that you give yourself about 10 years to practice and become skilled at spiritual communication and astral projection, and then spend some time talking to non-human entities and trying to understand the world from their viewpoints. After all that, if you still have the same views/opinions that you do now, I'll be very surprised.
"Have you met people of your level of development (balanced, not insane people) that have different views based on experience on the universe than you?"
Certainly - but usually only different regarding one's personal terminology or in regards to their personal soul agenda etc. One of my past mentors uses his skills almost exclusively for defensive and combative applications. That's what he's here for and he's good at it. When I tried to live and function in accordance with his views, I flopped. It wasn't my true nature or true Will. But him and I still share similar views when it comes to the core essence of development and sense of duty on a spiritual level and aligning with Allness. (Although his outlook is primarily scientific and non-spiritual, he derives the majority of his power from a heavy core connection to Allness which he is allowed to channel at will - in so doing, he becomes an agent of higher spiritual forces and is able to function as MORE than himself alone. This is what I have observed by studying him clairvoyantly.) As for what most modern ceremonialists think, I rarely give them half a thought - some of those whom I've had arguments with wouldn't know real magick if it bit them on the ass, and half spend their lives obsessing over trite symbolism and playing childish number games (e.g. Gematria) while thinking that everything has meaning or that none of it does and it's all in their heads.
"I'm sure you have, but I mean like people who would disagree with your views, but not necessarily be "wrong?" No offense to you at all, but I find it hard to believe that so many practitioners of magick that don't agree with your experiences on spritual development and don't stress the importance of going to higher plains are...well...wrong..."
Of course it's possible to disagree with me and not be wrong - 'truth' depends on one's point of view, personal experience, and state of development. A truth on one level of reality might hold 'true' there, but totally be false on a different level and vice versa.
Here's an excerpt from Bardon's "Initiation into Hermetics" on the nature of Truth which might give you food for thought:
"Now we will leave the microcosm, the human being with his earthly, astral and mental bodies, and direct our attention towards other tasks with which the aspiring initiate will have to deal in due time. Above all stands the problem of truth. Many philosophers have frequently occupied themselves with this task and it is also incumbent upon us to deal with it.
Here we will only deal with those truths of which we have precise knowledge. Truth depends upon the cognizance of each individual. And since all of us do not have one and the same cognizance, we cannot generalize the problem of truth. That is why every individual, provided he is sincere, has his own truth from his own point of view and in accordance with his maturity and cognizance. Only the one who knows and masters the absolute laws of the macrocosm and microcosm can speak of an absolute truth. Anyone will certainly acknowledge certain aspects of the absolute truth. No one will doubt the existence of life, the will, memory and intellect; certainly he will refrain from denying these things. A trite initiate will never force anyone who has not reached a certain level of maturity to accept his truth. That particular person would again view the truth from his own point of view. It would therefore serve no purpose to discuss higher truths with the uninitiated, except for those who strive towards these higher truths and begin to mature for these truths. All else would have to be considered profane and, from the magical point of View, incorrect. Bear in mind the words of the great Master of Christianity: Do not cast your pearls before swine."
The ability to differentiate knowledge from wisdom belongs also to truth. Knowledge on all levels of human existence depends upon maturity, receptivity, intelligence, and memory, regardless of whether we have enriched our knowledge by reading, transferral and communication, or other experiences.
There is a vast difference between knowledge and wisdom. It is considerably less difficult to gain knowledge than it is to attain wisdom. Wisdom is not at all dependent upon knowledge, although both are identical to a certain degree. The source of wisdom is within God, in the causal principle, in the Akasha, on all planes of the material, astral and mental worlds. Therefore, wisdom does not depend on the intellect and memory, but upon the maturity, purity and perfection of the personality of the individual. You could also consider wisdom to be a state of development of the "I." Consequently, cognizance is not given to us only by the intellect, but especially through intuition or inspiration. Therefore, the degree of wisdom determines one's level of development. That does not mean that we should neglect knowledge; on the contrary, knowledge and wisdom must go hand in hand. That is why the initiate will strive to get ahead in knowledge as well as in wisdom, because one cannot lag behind the other when it comes to development.
When knowledge and wisdom keep the same pace in the development of the initiate, then he is given the possibility of comprehending and recognizing all laws of the microcosm and macrocosm - not only from the point of view of wisdom, but also from the intellectual point of view, or in other words bipolarly - and to make use of them for his development.
One of the many laws, the first major key, the mystery of the Tetragrammaton or the tetrapolar magnet in all planes, has already been discussed. Since it is a universal key, it can be used for solving all problems, all laws, for every truth; in short, it can be used for everything, provided the initiate understands how to use this key properly. In the course of time, while his development unfolds and he perfects himself in the Hermetic sciences, he will learn different aspects of this key and acknowledge these aspects as immutable laws. He will not grope about in darkness and uncertainty; instead he will hold a light in his hand with which he will be able to penetrate any ignorance.
This brief description should suffice for the aspiring initiate to know the position he should take in regards to the question of truth."
-----end of excerpt----
"Hey wouldn't the universe be imbalanced without human entities populating the lower areas? Those low areas seem pretty important to me..."
Because that's the area you're developing at the moment :) They're pretty important to me too, but as I've been saying my views and attitudes toward them have changed as a result of other experiences. I see the physical as a useful tool and a piece of a larger puzzle, but my agenda is different to those who would seek to only live in the physical.
"Perhaps it's good that their importance is stressed by some...Like you pointed out, I guess we do agree on many things, but some of the few I do disagree with you I think are very big differences in our views on the importance of spiritual development vs. sittin' pretty right here."
Hehehe you can't stay stagnant forever - eventually you'll be thrown into a situation where you'll have to get up and take your place with the rest of us ;)
(I believe the proverbial phrase is having someone/something 'light a fire
under your ass' hehehe.)
"But then, I'm a lazy clumsy oaf..."
Successful magickians are never lazy.
"Lol my memory is better now...I remember why I thought you seemed a little more RHP than compeletely MP: you put too much importance on getting to higher planes, which is the biggest goal for RHP'ers."
The difference between me and the RHP people is that I don't forget all about the lower planes after I travel (in consciousness) to higher ones. A magickian should be able to function equally well on all levels according to need. Learning to go to higher realms only helps to expand one's arsenal of useful skills. It also helps you get more control of LOWER realms.
Here's an example: let's say you want to evoke and control demons. The more associated with and plugged into higher vibratory rates you are (i.e. the more 'holy' and divine you are), the more compelled the demonic beings will be to obey you. If you're not very evolved/developed and retain a ton of lower vibratory crud (i.e. anger, fear, aggression etc.) while lacking any higher connections, then chances are you'll get seriously stomped on - the demon will not listen to you and you won't have any clout to force it to do anything. You'll possibly become its bitch.
That's a really simple watered down example, but hopefully you'll get the gist of what I'm getting at.
"I understand your being all paths, though...That's probably the best thing to do for yourself...I've yet to see what's in store for myself. Left Hand Rules! Eat My Dust! j/j ;)"
heheheh and I remember when I thought I wanted to be an arrogant Thelemite all those years ago we'll see how you're thinking after you've had a few years to study and practice :)