March 30th 2003
"having read a good deal of the web page whee you answer questions, the bit that really stuck out for me was where an inner voice told you to not impose you magical symbolic maps on the hallucinogenically inspired 'flow', but rather go WITH that and try and 'explain' later"
Yep - I usually only adopt as my own a practice or 'map' currently in popular use ONLY if I find that it reflects my own personal experiences. Otherwise, you run the risk of bending your experiences to match the map or set of symbolism you're using - although that's not necessarily a bad thing either. If a person is just starting out, following a well-worn map or tradition or set of symbols will provide a better foundation for developing initial skills and achieve more predictable initial results. Once basic skills are learned, then the person will have a better leg to stand on for personal exploration.
"i also question your assumptions of 'lower' self and 'higher' self. of >course this idea will have ben inspired from the western esoteric tradition which in turn is really FROM themiddle eastern, and asian, esoteric tradition albeit modified."
My assumptions are not 'assumptions' - they are my personal observations/realizations following personal experiences (with much initial disbelief).
"i ecently read that western Qabalah was very masculine bias. For example, the symbol of the 'Tree' is kind of a 'ladder'. at the bottom are 'Earth' 'Woman' and the 'uninitiated' who then have to climb to become more pure"
I'm not sure where you read that, but it's incorrect when taken out of context and read literally rather than symbolically. Kabbalah in most forms shows quite a good balance of male and female polarity on the tree. Something that bears mentioning is that in Jewish traditions, the woman/wife is considered superior and exempt from many of the laws/requirements that men are constrained to follow. (It is also considered a man's duty to satisfy his wife - so if there's any bias I'd say it was slightly in the woman's favour heheh.)
As for earth/woman being on the 'bottom' and purity on the 'top', this is also figurative speech. The Tree of Life is a map of the universe and one's own consciousness, and words like male/female top/bottom are used to describe the various frequency bands of reality in terms that human minds can easily understand (keep in mind that most of this tradition was created prior to the industrial revolution and major advances in science so terminology was quite limited).
Something to remove misunderstandings with Kabbalah/Qabalah traditions is that anything that projects energy is often termed 'male' (for symbolic purposes - NOT to be taken literally), and anything that receives and gives form is often termed 'female'. Each sefira, for example, can be seen to be BOTH male and female depending on the viewpoint i.e. whether being looked at from the sefira directly above or directly below it.
"so from the premise of matter is bad we have the impetus to climb 'UP' to the'spirit'."
The kabbalah does not assume that matter is bad. After all, G-d created the world and saw that it was 'good' ;) The idea that matter is a bad thing is actually a Gnostic concept, and one that I don't actually share in my own practices.
"thus giving the strong suggestion that one can never just BE."
If that's what you want to do, that's your choice. But striving to explore and become more than one currently is would probably be MUCH harder than just sitting around doing nothing ;)
"never be happy with earthy life without the symbolic aspiring climb which is the expected lesson for the general person"
The idea behind most religions is (looking at the word etymologically - re = again, ligo = bind/fasten/attach) literally a form of reconnection with one's spiritual roots, which are the things commonly forgotten during an incarnation due to one's focus (through necessity) on physicality and personal survival.
What is implied in magickal development is becoming more aware of one's component parts as they exist on ALL levels - spiritual, mental, AND physical. Self mastery is usually the ultimate goal in most magick practice, and that requires full awareness and control of all levels/aspects of oneself. The mystic is the one who commonly strives only toward higher spiritual levels while forgetting all about the lower frequencies of matter. The Magickian, in contrast, does not forget where he came from, and seeks equal mastery on all levels.
"when you look at culture in general, it is plain to see how it is modeled on that premise. ie., that it is a MIDDLE CLASS notion imposed on nature and people."
You'd have to clarify what you mean here.
"i'm not sure if you're aware, but the 'middle classes' in Engalnd came to prominence in the Industrial Revolution, and one of their main inventions for keeping thie elite an elite was 'EXAMS'. to pass you could claim to be 'one of them'"
1. I fail to see how that has any bearing on the current topic.
2. I'm completely uninterested in political reform, socio-economic trends,
or other things that don't directly relate to my current direction of study
or goals within esoteric subjects, so I'll probably not have any comment on
middle class England during any period. (Besides, I grew up in America.)
I agree with the point you're making, but in the case of Kabbalah and actual practice (and the fact that there is no real success or failure - only one's own goals/directions for personal development), I disagree entirely. It seems to me you're looking at the topic from the viewpoint of someone who has read too much (in the wrong direction) 'between the lines' of the esoteric texts while taking the terminology literally. Lower or Higher are not meant to imply better/worse or inferior/superior. They are more correctly descriptive of various frequency levels of reality, both internally and externally of one's consciousness. The 'Higher Self' is just the aspect of a person that exists in frequency bands above (for lack of a better term) one's immediate consciousness (I'm sure Jung would have another name for it - probably one step away from the collective unconscious). It functions independent of normal awareness (one's normal sense of human ego/persona) and usually chimes in as a form of formless intuition. The lower self is simply one's immediate human consciousness - which is essentially a projection of the higher self (projected down into and 'moored to' matter/the body which serves as a physical vessel).
What I have said just now is not meant to be debated - we could debate for hours, but it would solve nothing. Instead, I've simply told you how things 'look' to me based on my personal work/experience and observation i.e. through direct experience with clairvoyant and astral work. I invite you to do the work and experience all of these things for yourself and draw your own conclusions.
By the way, like most practitioners of magick, I make use of commonly used terms in western and eastern mysticism as I find them because it is easier than inventing my own completely new terminology (which would only confuse readers more if I did).
"i am not saying though that one cant then do magic. what i am saying is >that hierarchical structures create a ladder system"
Structure creates and/or allows for a direction of progress and/or motion. Without any structure, in the Kabbalah for example, then no clairvoyant/astral skills or experiences would be cultivated. If you removed hierarchical structures from subjects such as navigation, you'd have no maps, no way of knowing how to get from one point of experience to any other, and you'd be akin to drifting in a boat in the middle of the ocean surrounded by an unknown chaos. As far as a hierarchical structure necessitating some notion of a need for progress in a 'higher' or 'lower' direction, I'd say that's a personal connotation of yours. Not all people in the military WANT to be Generals or officers for example - so clearly the existence of hierarchy doesn't always promote a feeling or desire to go one direction or another.
Back on-topic: To my knowledge, the observation of energetic structure(s) within the template(s) of reality came first. It wasn't just something dreamt up by me or anyone else without first experiencing something akin to hierarchy/structure first-hand. Granted, the human mind likes to see things as linear and complete, so it would tend to interpret experiences in such terms, but for those who take the time and effort to develop their skills and go out and experience these things for themselves, some form of structure can be easily found - particularly on levels that more closely relate to physicality. (Once you start looking at levels of thought-without-form obviously all sense of structure/logic/reason gets thrown out the window.)
Don't read things too literally. If you find that you have an issue with people or concepts that suggest the physical realm to be 'bad' and spiritual realms to be 'good', then you'll have to investigate this issue to find out where it first occurred in your life. Not all practitioners of magick are Gnostic, so not all of us (or even many of us) will view the body or physicality as 'bad'. (Technically, most of us try to see beyond subjective judgements of good/bad.) Personally I see both physicality and spirituality as useful, and my practices for/against either will depend upon my goals at the time. The Tree of Life as a Kabbalistic symbol is just a symbolic map illustrating energetic relationships - just because a map has North on the top doesn't mean that everyone is trying to travel North or that going North (or going in ANY direction for that matter) is the most desirable direction of travel.
April 1st 2003
"where am eye? i am in a place called 'not knowing'.
is this the same place zennists refer to? i dont know. seriously i dont. all
i know IS is i am exploring. i have had quite a lot of psychdelic experience--plus
the 'school-of-hard-knocks', and much much more. recently following an extrmemly
arduous CHAOTIC psychdelic experience on Liberty Caps, this inspired me to look
into Chaos. i belong to a forum which is part of www.dhushara.com called wedweave.
a member there--Iona Miller--has quite a few artilces online under the title
of CHAOSOPHY. after the Trip of mine, i was drawn to reading about that, and
recently i have become very interested in studying (not DOING) Chaos Magick.
i am very attracted to their 'meta-paradigm'
"i am also very interested in Dionysian Mysteries,
and the significant >transition whereby the more primal earthy ecstasy were
'usurped' by the more thoughty. philosophical, and ascetic Orphic ecstasy. one
could say that an order was imposed, which as u may know some Chaotes believe
to be a major cause of the world's crisis. Too much order imposed on a chaotic
I won't comment much here - my own views are more toward a balance in all things - neither too much order nor too much chaos. A car needs to always be corrected while driving down the road so it doesn't drift too far to the left or the right, otherwise it'll end up in the ditch rather than at any useful destination.
"in one of your recommendations to me, you judge that i read things too 'literally'. altho your're entitled to your opinion, i see it differnt. i seek to read between the lines and beneath the script, and thus to llok at BEHAVIOUR. a major book which inspired this way of looking at the printed word, for example, was J.Allegro's The Sacred Mushroom and >the Cross, where he suggests that a secret message was cryptically codified in ancient scripture for the initiated...etc."
Messages decipherable only by other initiates were encrypted in texts and (symbolically) in temple architecture for that matter. But to clarify what I said before, when I said you were reading between the lines too much in the wrong way, I didn't mean that it was bad to do so, only that your current conclusions on the Qabalah were presently incorrect. If you want to get a better idea of what the Qabalah is really about then I suggest avoiding feminist literature. Those people always seem to suffer from a complete lack of reason/intelligence whenever they superficially peruse the vast and varied literature of the Qabalah/Kabbalah. It would appear that basic concepts such as symbolism and allegory within a cultural paradigm (that of the time period in which the texts were written) conveniently elude them.
"Of course that book had
a deep affect on me. it brought me closer to the mythological past. after all
i KNEW the power of hallucinogenic experience. i had DONE it! so, i could relate
to that. it wasn't merely literal--just words
"Amoris, you ask where i get the idea that the Qabalah is male/spirit bias? please checkout this site. the ONLY place i am aware which goes deeply into this:
"Matrifocus, Gender Equity in Hermetic Qabalah" www.matrilocal.org/MF/BEL02/myturn-qabalah.htm"
heheheh just read it. Basically this woman has no idea what she's talking about. She's a feminist with an agenda, and no amount of explaining to people like her about how words like feminine/masculine are merely being used symbolically in the Qabalah will actually change her misguided opinion. The Kabbalah's terminology was formed during different time periods and cultures foreign to our own, so it's understandable how attempting to interpret it literally (and translated in English for that matter) would promote misconceptions.
Here are some of my comments on her statements:
"But a closer look at Qabalah reveals problems for those who seek gender equity in spiritual life, reject hierarchies, and see spirit immanent in the material world."
Here's where she first takes a step upon total stupidity. The kabbalah (I'm using that spelling to indicate my preference for original traditional Jewish mystical schools/paths rather than the modern gentile/Christian distortions) sees Spirit both as transcendent and immanent. The terms for both are, respectively, Ain Soph (literally "no limit" or the Infinite unmanifested source of all things) and Shekhina - which is considered to be the (feminine) Immanent presence of Divinity.
Regarding Hierarchies in the Kabbalah, it's only natural that when constructing a map, humans would seek to explain things in linear terms due to their preference for understanding and making the world fit into such structures (heh blame the principle of Binah - see below for more details). In actual practice, however, it is understood that there is no 'up' or 'down' - these are relative terms. Some of the first depictions of the glyph known as the Tree of Life were actually circular - any notion of up or down was irrelevant.
"Hermetic Qabalah, the basis of the Western mystical or "mystery" tradition, took its most widely known form in the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, which flourished in the late 19th and early 20th centuries in Great Britain and to a lesser extent continental Europe and the United States and gave the world several influential teachers including Arthur E. Waite, Aleister Crowley, and Dion Fortune."
She might have thought to ALSO include Gerald Gardner, the founder of Wicca as having been influenced directly by the likes of Aleister Crowley and his Golden Dawn based system of magick. In fact, the two were in contact shortly before Crowley's death, and it's pretty obvious to anyone well versed in modern ceremonial that Wicca borrows extensively from that terminology and set of practices. It's even been suggested that Wicca was designed to be a sort of O.T.O. for laymen.
"The Golden Dawn used the kabbalistic tree in a way it had never been used in Judaism: as a model for its organizational hierarchy,"
This part is correct, but let's keep in mind that such structure meant nothing outside of the Order itself. It was simply a convenient way of incorporating their version of Qabalistic philosophy into every facet of their practice/system.
"which had "secret chiefs" at the top, public chiefs such as Samuel L. "MacGregor" Mathers a little further down, and the rest of the membership scattered beneath. The Order retained the Jewish concept of creation emanating from the top of the Tree of Life down, but those studying Qabalah climbed up the Tree from the bottom, beginning with a feminine sefirah named Malkut."
Where else would she propose to commence one's instruction in any 'system' of study but at the very beginning??? For most new initiates in any magickal system, the most obvious aspects of reality that they're aware of (or even capable of becoming immediately aware of) lie within the physical realm! It only makes sense to start teaching according to what people are most familiar with (rather than confuse them with drastic altered states of consciousness that they've never previously experienced) and gradually assist them to experience other things less familiar.
"Though we might hope this signaled a more naturalistic concept of the Tree, this was not the intent. Rather, it meant that the person, ignorant of mystical truth, has to start at the bottom of the ladder, the location of matter--the material world. Each sefirah was seen as a step closer to spirit, in a system that looked with disdain on the Earth and matter."
Her last statement has no real truth to it (as far as I'm concerned). Kabbalists do not look with disdain upon matter; Gnostics do. And for all I'm aware, most modern Golden Dawn based magickians view the material realm as an excellent proving/practice ground for developing one's skills. Furthermore, in traditional Jewish Kabbalistic schools, it is looked poorly upon to avoid contact with the material realm by living as a hermit in a cave (like most Eastern mystics) because doing so would cut you off from valuable learning experiences and possibilities for assisting in the evolution of humanity - you'd be seen as avoiding your responsibilities/duties while incarnate.
"For in the whole Universe shineth the [goddess] Triad, over which the [Paternal] Monad ruleth."
Here's an example of her trying to fit out of context material into her delusional and biased world-views. The Monad is not paternal (though some Christians might wish to view it that way) - it's neither male nor female. It's simply an IT. Regarding the 'goddess' triad, she's shown she has no understanding of the triad in question and has intentionally manipulated the phraseology to support her ridiculous cause. The Triad in question consists of the top 3 supernal sefirot (pronounced seh-fee-rote) on the tree of life i.e. Kether (Keter), Chokmah (Hokmah - pronounced with phlegmy 'h' sound), Binah (bee-nah). Kether is the first point of manifestation and is beyond duality - thus it's an undifferentiated IT - a point of light/energy. Chokmah is still an undifferentiated unity, but consists of an energetic motion and is the beginning of a sense of duality, being a reflection of the primary IT/Monad. (In the Kabbalah, this Monad is not 'god' either - it's an aspect of the supreme unmanifest source of all things, but isn't the Source itself.) Chokmah is seen as 'male' in a symbolic sense and roughly corresponds to the right hemisphere of the brain in function. Binah is the differentiating/delineating force (often seen as female symbolically) that is the source of form in the universe, but NOT actual form itself. The left pillar on the tree of life is the pillar of Form, and the right pillar is the pillar of Force. Thus, opposites are recognized and seen as necessary for any sort of manifestation to take place. In Kabbalah, to seek only order or chaos while eliminating one or the other would be unbalanced and cause the whole of manifestation to instantly vanish.
"And the Great Goddess bringeth forth the vast Sun and brilliant Moon, and the wide Air, and the Lunar Course and the Solar Pole...."
This ritual may be referring to Binah or the World Spirit. I'd have to look it up to be certain.
"And above the shoulders of the Great Goddess is Nature in Her vastness exalted." Yet the same ritual affirms: . . . "all things are subservient through the Will of the Father of All."
Terms such as 'Father' are layovers from previous cultures/time periods. It would interest her no doubt that Hebrew as a language only has 2 genders in its grammatical structure, unlike German (for example) which has 3. To the Jewish Kabbalists, anything that projects force/energy is considered 'male' and anything that receives and gives form to that energy is considered 'female'. Knowing this, what else would they call the Source of all things but a Father of All? Through their symbolic terminology they're simply recognizing within their mystical system that Ain Soph projected/sent forth (into the vacuum created in the centre of nothingness/unmanifestation) and condensed energy into a point (referred to later as the Monad).
"The feminine sefirah Malkut is described as the evil part of the Tree of Good and Evil. She is related to the element earth, and as such is "the receptacle" of air, fire and water. Because of her earthiness or closeness to the material plane, Qabalists considered Malkut to contain evil, which needs to be purged by fire and water."
What she doesn't know is that Evil is simply seen as unbalanced force. Excess of Light will blind, just as much as excess of Darkness. Therefore Balance/moderation in all things is, above all, to be strived toward. Regarding Malkuth containing evil and needing to be purged, though probably unaware, she's vaguely touching on the concept of Tikkun; rectification/liberation of divine sparks from within inert matter (kinda similar to some later Alchemical concepts of perfecting materials) so as to return them to their ultimate source and re-establish the original state of matter on this planet.
A few things she also doesn't know is that Malkuth in some systems is seen as representative NOT only as the physical realm, but as one's actions and words within the physical realm. Therefore, what are necessary to be purged are one's own actions and words due to their potential for having devastating effect upon one's environment and society when used haphazardly.
Somewhat related topic: It is through our words and thoughts that we actually create our limited sense of reality. The very act of limiting something by attempting to classify it automatically puts a bias on it, and potentially distorts its infinite nature. We, as humans, do things like this all the time. We constantly make assumptions/thoughts about the way the world is while we walk down the street. But, our assumptions occur so fast that we mistakenly assume that those beliefs and conclusions ARE actual reality itself, rather than merely our limited assumptions of what reality is (modified/filtered through our 5 senses and personal belief structures derived from past experiences).
The challenge for most is in recognizing the limitations of such conclusions/beliefs and learning to use them as tools rather than continuing to assume that they're representative of the true nature of reality. The secondary challenge in this is to not allow oneself to lose all sense of direction in the process and degenerate into a delusional existence where all things are permitted and nothing is real. Some balance between the 2 worlds (internal realized and external contrived) must be arrived at for one's existence to continue in any practical manner.
"To Malkut were assigned several Christian personifications: the three "holy Women" (i.e., the Marys) at the foot of the cross; also just Mary, Mother of Jesus; and also Eve."
This here is basically distorted Christian influenced garbage within the G.D. system - I wouldn't use it as a good representation of authentic Kabbalist philosophies or practices.
"the Son should be crucified on the Cross of the infernal Rivers in Daath [an upper, "invisible" sefirah];"
Da'at is the union/conjunction of the forces of Chokmah and Binah - sometimes referred to as 'Knowledge' since without the right and left hemispheres working together, you don't really 'know' anything in a conscious way. The right hemisphere provides (to them) poetic/creative inspiration, while the left hemisphere makes sense of it and gives it form/direction.
"yet to do this He must descend to the lowest first, even unto Malkuth and be born of Her." The implication here is that Malkut/Mary is "lowly," as is woman, but that in order to fulfill his mission, Christ had to lower himself to be born of woman."
The implication for them is more probably that Christ (and each of us) is a spirit whose true essential nature is abstract and spiritual, and that in order to fulfil the 'mission' (in their terms) of making the world a better place, Christ had to come down in vibratory/frequency rate (from Spiritual existence to physical) and allow himself to incarnate as a human being. There is no true implication that Malkuth or woman is 'lowly' at all, although she'd like to see this due to her distorted outlook on the world and lack of adequate understanding of the material.
This site and article may shed some light on some of the symbolism of the initiation
process itself within the Golden Dawn tradition and the 'lowly woman' symbolism
that she misunderstood (again, due to her lack of ability to recognize symbolic
language/pictures as a result of her personal agenda).
"From a Goddess spirituality point of view,"
And such point of view, I might add is extremely unbalanced and merely an attempt to replace one supreme masculine deity with one supreme feminine deity. Both are just 2 sides of the same unbalanced problem. I think her real issue is with Christianity, not Qabalah.
"this stereotyping of feminine as negative and passive and masculine as the positive and active is detrimental to women and inaccurate."
Heh this is all just more proof that she's a moron. Negative as a term is not meant to carry with it a bad connotation within Qabalah. Does the fact that a battery contains a 'negative' pole make us view that side of it as 'bad'? Nope - that's simply the direction that current flows to, therefore indicating a 'negative flow' of energy (because it's not flowing forward within the circuit - it's being received).
"The area at the height of the man's legs between the pillars is labeled "the knowledge of good." He stands just above a crowned nude female figure who supports the right and left pillars from below. She stands atop a sefirah at the location of Malkut, which contains the eight-headed serpent. This area is labeled "The knowledge of evil,"and emphasizes the Golden Dawn's location of evil in the feminine Malkut, even before the Fall."
She'd do well to read up on the Kabbalistic concepts of male/female in reference to projection/reception and in terms of how spatial relations are symbolically represented on the Tree of Life.
I won't bother to waste my time pointing out her idiotic statements and filling in with more correct explanations any further. If you'd like to find out what REAL Kabbalah is all about, then I recommend perusing these texts:
Mysteries of the Kabbalah - by Marc-Alain Ouaknin.
Sefer Yetzirah : The Book of Creation - In Theory and Practice - Aryeh Kaplan.
Meditation and Kabbalah - Aryeh Kaplan.
Kabbalah : The Way of the Jewish Mystic - Perle Epstein.
Kabbalah: A definitive history of the evolution, ideas, leading figures, and extraordinary influence of Jewish mysticism - Gershom Scholem.
"of course, lately i am attempting
to engage seveal Chaotes into an online conversatio, so as i can get more intiamte
with differing views about so-called cutting edge magick. with their meta-belief
like i said i find this exciting, but also in me is what some of them term the
Right Hand Path ideaslism of wanting to create a more peaceful world."
A person would actually have to learn to read Hebrew to make better sense of some of the material and actually practice it with greater proficiency.
I've always thought the term Right-Hand path was slightly misnamed - it should be considered more the path of Chesed/universal love and the principle of non-stop selfless giving instead.
Interestingly, Kabbalists actually see such activity as unbalanced, in that
it wouldn't be tempered with the discipline/limitation of the directly opposite
sefira of Geburah (see Tree of Life diagram). After all, you can't constantly
give of yourself or your money and expect to remain balanced - eventually you'll
be exhausted and broke.
"see the beginning of your attached post Amoris, where you try and respond to me telling you how much i liked that 'inner voice' which told you to FLOW with the Trip and not super-impose limited symbolism on it, but to EXPLAIN what you expreince NOW afterwards. i do not uderstand your response to what i said. you still seem to be saying you need to use maps on the Trip."
My actual view on that is 2-fold - a map can be useful for directing one's experience for a practical purpose (and when first starting out I believe a beginner SHOULD become proficient within a map/system for sake of the development of useful skills in a predictable way), but travelling without one can also help you to go places you might not have thought about going before. Both methods should, in my opinion, be made use of (by skilled/experienced practitioners), otherwise going completely without any direction could end in listless/aimless astral joy-riding.
Regarding what I said in response, I was just remarking that I myself don't
like to adhere rigidly to using 'maps' (now that I have more experience and
a much better idea of what I'm doing compared to when I first started out years
ago) - I find it best to sort out the interpretation process afterward. HOWEVER,
whenever I do decide to adopt a 'map' or model of reality for my own use later,
generally it's because that particular map/model matched my own to a large enough
degree so as to be compatible with my own experiences/practices.
heheh nope - that's not my path/tradition ;)
You'll have to ask someone who has done more research in those areas.
"not sure EYE do hahaha....like i said, i'm exploring. and sometimes willy nilly one can get tongue-tied."
I'm rather biased in this view, but I always recommend that a person eventually study and master at least one system of magick rather than haphazardly exploring in a 'willy nilly' fashion. My reasoning for this is that the student will more quickly develop useful skills that way and have a far better grasp of essential material and be better equipped for later free-form personal exploration.
"this is why we discuss and explore after all, isn't it?"
Exploring is fine :)
Unfortunately, I can't comment much on some of the things you're looking into
because they're not part of my own path of study or previous experience. I hope,
if nothing else, that I've been of some service in helping to point out the
obvious flaws of the feminist interpretations of Qabalah/Kabbalah.
April 10th 2003
Amoris non Dea est. Est Deus in terra et discipulus aeternus.
"---haha. altho i hadn't, if i had crated a trap, then you've fallen right init!"
Heh whatever helps you sleep better at night.
"your views reflect EXACTLY what she MEANS. this is what i previously meant about 'reading between lines'. this doesn't merely include understanding cryptic references of text and so on, but MUCH more observing behaviour and attitudes. such observation never fails."
In your case I'd say it has.
"this is the tale of the Emperorers new clothes. dont underestimate me my friend,"
You've given me nothing but reason to continue to do so. You've yet to display the intellect and research ability you profess to so much, as your arguments are irrelevant, draw spurious conclusions, and waste much time.
"i didn't come to her explanation of Qabalah blind. i have an eclectic research range and can very much intuit how the patriarchal bias has and DOEs operate. not just for women, but for all peoples who 'it'--the 'elite' views those considered less than.....errrm eg, women, queers (a term which covers a broad spectrum), the poor, people with dark skin, people who are seen as 'ordinary' and not sharing the so-called 'higher vision of Kabbala', the poor...etc etc etc"
You assume much.
"i would advise you to read The Great Cosmic Mother by Brbara Mor and Monica Sjoo, but i dont really think you may read without bias eyes."
You're right - I'm not interested in feminist literature because whenever I've taken the time to explain Kabbalistic concepts to such individuals (whom are neither better nor less than me) I am met with an extreme bias that insists upon pushing away and distorting anything I try to say (much as you have attempted to do in your recent message). Therefore, I conclude, that such individuals (whether male or female) are a waste of time for me to try to talk to because they appear incapable of listening to the answers they've requested.
"but thet document the process of oppression. i have a brain just like you Amoris, and"
Then I'd suggest you turn yours on and start using it rather than trying to put words into someone's mouth or feebly attempting to debunk something you know little about. I'm sorry, but you feel very young and inexperienced to me, and I really have more important things to spend my time on than ridiculous banter about the process of oppression. I'm simply not interested in such social issues and could give a shit less about a few people who insist upon thinking that they're oppressed because of their gender.
I'm reminded of the silly character in Monty Python's Holy Grail film who appears to be on a permanent soap box regarding oppression of the people regardless of what is said to him. His argument style and mental track is intentionally circular, much like your own.
"i aint saying i'm perfect."
That's a relief. I'd hate to have to be admitted to hospital at this time of night to repair a hernia caused by excessive laughter.
"but i can see patterns to what many of the feminists are saying, not only for distant history but also NOW. for someone to undermine my intuition and learning about this is not worthy of respect."
A person who asks me a question about a topic of which I am both knowledgeable and experienced and then proceeds to take an offensive stance while trying to make what I've said fit in with his views on some aspect of something completely UNRELATED to magickal study is not worthy of MY respect. From an adult viewpoint, your actions have been childish, rude, and display a marked lack of education.
"of course one COULS say' i think we'll agree to differ'! that attitude realizes that two views are to be respected at the least?"
That would be the mature thing to do ;)
(Other mature things which would lend credibility to one's position would be to learn the basics of English composition and occasionally making use of a spell-checker from time to time.)
"but here's how you go about it Amoris, and i will emphasis your >constant attitude, and of course patronising-bias. dont these two ALWAYS go together like peas in a pod?:"
"> >If you want to get a better idea of what Qabalah is really about then I SUGGEST AVOIDING FEMINIST LITERATURE >important point here! note Amoris how your bias includes ALL such literature!."
Yes because their intentionally biased agenda is not conducive to arriving at any unbiased conclusions on the topic of Qabalah. Just as you would probably not ask a Palestinian about the Israelites (or vice versa), you would never ask a feminist about the Qabalah - in either instance you are guaranteed to get biased and potentially erroneous information.
"THESE PEOPLE ALWAYS SEEM TO SUFFER FROM A COMPLETE
LACK OF >REASON/INTELLIGENCE...<
"hehe, well THAT attitude, Amoris is PRECISELY what women have been >accused of all the way down the line from those who hold fast either/and consciously and unconsciously to 'rule of the fathers'. tis a wonder you dont follow that with "not GET in the kitchen where you belong!!"
Here's where you start putting words into my mouth.
(Here's also where I start to grow tired of this idiot.)
> >SHE'S A FEMINIST WITH AN AGENDA, AND NO AMOUNT OF EXPLAINING about the how words like feminine/masculine are merely being used symbolically in Qabalah will actually change HER MISGUIDED OPINION<
right...right. so let me see YOUR reasoning here. it is only the WOMENS who have an agenda is it?"
Nope - that's not what I said either ;) Again, you're being stupid and trying to put words in my mouth.
"meanwhile the reason-rich good mean proceed
without agenda.....not what i have learnt Amoris! and not what i can see ALL
then you REALLY fall on the bananaskin Amoris..big time."
I fail to see how, but I'll tolerantly humour you a moment longer before I laugh til I pee.
"you carry on with your denigrating remarks about the author. how she lacks reason and meticulousness..etc etc:"
Just as you yourself do heheh. You really should find better role models for scholarly endeavours.
"> >here's where SHE FIRST TAKES STEPS UPON TOTAL STUPIDITY. The Kabbalah (I'm using that spellig to indicate my preference for original traditional Jewish mystical schools/paths RATHER THAN THE MODERN GENTILE/CHRISTIAN DISTORTIONS <o right Amaoris, i see now you concede that MEN can create 'distortions!.."
The term Christian can refer to men or women. I really don't know why you're so insistent upon putting words into my mouth. I'm guessing you have something to prove - is daddy not treating you well at home? Does he make you feel tiny and unimportant? Maybe you should address the real issue and take it out on the source rather than pestering people over the internet.
"BUT this is the WHOLE POINT of what she is on about if you'd taken the time to read it properly. she in not COCENTRATING particularly on the JEWISH Kaballah (tho i know from my OWN research that too is very anti-feminist in its behaviour)."
Hmm perhaps some classes in proper research methods would be in order too...
Note: while I realize the author I was commenting on was focused on the G.D. Qabalah, I chose to write more from a traditional perspective as I felt that going to the source of the tradition would shed more light on what is already a topic much distorted by modifications/borrowings/bastardizations.
"she is focusing on 'QABALAH which is the Hermetic strain of western mystery tradtion with its Chrstian influences and so on. so ALL your castiagation of her misreading, and not being reasonable enuf or more like a man?...has backfired on u because you failed to get the point YOURSELF."
I understand her point - her point is that she wants to put words into the mouths of other people just as you do. To what end, I know not, though I might speculate an inferiority complex and desire to (poorly attempt to) lower others so as to make one's self feel better. Unfortunately for you, it's not working but I suspect you're too ignorant to realize it.
"i am only highlighting this to show you to yourself Amoris. i am not angry, or wanting to bite etc. but i am merely showing yourself through my eyes."
HAH! You think you're the ONLY person who's ever tried to hold a mirror up to me? You're only one of hundreds who do so on a daily basis, and I really must say that you've done a terrible job of it; so far you've only succeeded in showing me a reflection of YOU. You've yet to come anywhere near me or anything to do with me, instead preferring to project material from your own mind to suit a purpose that I find lacking in substance.
To illustrate my point, here's an excerpt from Blake's Marriage of Heaven and Hell - one of the memorable fancies (though you'll probably miss the point entirely and attempt to spout off about how you've seemingly ensnared me in yet another verbal trap while typing in the piecemeal delusional style you've demonstrated up to this point):
"An angel came to me and said: 'O pitiable foolish young man! Oh, horrible! Oh, dreadful state! Consider the hot burning dungeon thou art preparing for thyself to all eternity, to which thou art going in such career.'
I said: 'Perhaps you will be willing to show me my eternal lot, and we will contemplate together upon it, and see whether your lot or mine is most desirable.'
So he took me through a stable and through a church and down into the church vault, at the end of which was a mill. Through the mill we went, and came to a cave. Down the winding cavern we groped our tedious way, till a void boundless as the nether sky appeared beneath us, and we held by the roots of trees and hung over this immensity. But I said: 'If you please we will commit ourselves to this voice, and see whether providence is here also. If you will not, I will!' But he answered: 'Do not presume, O young man; but as we here remain, behold thy lot which will soon appear when the darkness passes away.'
So I remained with him sitting in the twisted root of an oak. He was suspended in a fungus which hung with the head downward into the deep.
By degrees we beheld the infinite abyss, fiery as the smoke of a burning city. Beneath us at an immense distance was the sun, black but shining. Round it were fiery tracks on which revolved vast spiders, crawling after their prey, which flew or rather swum in the infinite deep, in the most terrific shapes of animals sprung from corruption; and the air was full of them, and seemed composed of them. These are devils, and are called Powers of the Air. I now asked my companion which was my eternal lot. He said: 'Between the black and white spiders.'
But now, from between the black and white spiders, a cloud and fire burst and rolled through the deep, black'ning all beneath, so that the nether deep grew black as a sea, and rolled with a terrible noise. Beneath us was nothing now to be seen but a black tempest, till looking east between the clouds and the waves, we saw a cataract of blood mixed with fire, and not many stones' throw from us appeared and sunk again the scaly fold of a monstrous serpent. At last to the east, distant about three degrees, appeared a fiery crest above the waves. Slowly it reared like a ridge of golden rocks, till we discovered two globes of crimson fire, from which the sea fled away in clouds of smoke; and now we saw it was the head of Leviathan. His forehead was divided into streaks of green and purple like those on a tiger's forehead. Soon we saw his mouth and red gills hang just above the raging foam, tingeing the black deep with beams of blood, advancing toward us with all the fury of a spiritual existence.
My friend the angel climbed up from his station into the mill. I remained alone, and then this appearance was no more, but I found myself sitting on a pleasant bank beside the river by moonlight, hearing a harper who sung to the harp; and his theme was: 'The man who never alters his opinion is like standing water, and breeds reptiles of the mind'.
But I arose, and sought for te mill, and there I found my angel, who, surprised, asked me how I escaped.
I answered: 'All that we saw was owing to your metaphysics; for when you ran away, I found myself on a bank by moonlight hearing a harper. But now we have seen my eternal lot, shall I show you yours? he laughed at my proposal: but I by force suddenly caught him in my arms, & flew westerly thro' the night, till we were elevated above the earths shadow: then I flung myself with him directly into the body of the sun, here I clothed myself in white, & taking in my hand Swedenborgs volumes sunk from the glorious clime, and passed all the planets till we came to Saturn, here I staid to rest & then leap'd into the void, between Saturn & the fixed stars.
'Here, said I, is your lot, in this space, if space it may be called.' Soon we saw the stable and the church, and I took him to the altar and opened the Bible, and lo! it was a deep pit, into which I descended driving the Angel before me, soon we saw seven houses of brick, one we entered; in it were a number of monkeys, baboons, & all of that species chained by the middle, grinning and snatching at one another, but withheld by the shortness of their chains: however I saw that they sometimes grew numerous, and then the weak were caught by the strong and with a grinning aspect, first coupled with & then devoured, by plucking off first one limb and then another till the body was left a helpless trunk. This after grinning & kissing it with seeming fondness they devoured too; and here & there I saw one savourily picking the flesh off of his own tail; as the stench terribly annoyed us both we went into the mill, and I in my hand brought the skeleton of a body, which in the mill was Aristotles Analytics.
So the Angel said: 'thy phantasy has imposed upon me & thou oughtest to be ashamed.'
I answered: 'We impose on one another, and it is but lost time to converse with you whose works are only Analytics."
"it is very important to understand the crusical role symbology has on the influence on peoples lives. for example, many people now dont give a monkeys for Christianity, right? but i bet you if you quizzed a borad section of people about what the Christian God is, they'd have the image of the old dude with the gry beard sat up there in the heavens. WHY? cause these sybololic images have their effect, and even UN consciously will affect behaviour in how people deal with each other"
While you may be just starting out, you might want to remember that I've been working with symbolism on a practical level (personally and in public) for the past decade.
"it isn't SO long ago women WERe expected to keep schtum, and do what they are good at, cook and sew, and lie ther and think of England. it also isn't THAt far back when they were said to have no souls....think on mate"
"Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn." The issue is simply irrelevant to me. It has absolutely no bearing on my personal progress, little relevance to the study of magick, and I shall continue on my path just as far and fast as I have prior to the advent of our discourse. You have, however, provided me with slightly more than half an hour's entertainment, so for that I suppose I am grateful. Yet still I can't help feeling I have wasted my time in speaking to a brick wall (an immature and rude one at that).
I won't be wasting any further time on you ;)
Visita interiora terrae rectificando innvenies occultum lapidem.
Real progress may start when you are able to understand the practical (rather
than speculative) side to that statement.